For this episode, we had a conversation with Kelan’s brother, Kristopher. After a difficult divorce, Kris's broken heart turned him off of music entirely for nearly a decade. Having been a musician and music lover for his whole life prior, the absence of music from his life is indicative of the pain he felt and the passion he lost. One day he heard the Twenty One Pilots song, Tear in my Heart. The song's agonizing lyrics and catchy melody spoke to Kris's anguish. This song became a gateway to other songs that he could relate to and rock-out to, and his love of listening to and playing music slowly returned. His journey eventually led to meeting a new love who he married a few years ago. It was a joy to watch his face light up when talking about this love. It felt like we went on this journey with him. Though his anguish has subsided, his love of the music that helped him move forward with his life persists. It was an awesome conversation, and even more awesome is the uncut version that lives on our patreon!
Full Transcript
0:05Speaker 1
You know, when you hear a song and it triggers a memory, it instantly takes you back to a particular person or place or moment.
This podcast is all about that song and those memories.
Welcome to That Takes Me Back, where we share stories that connect music and memories.
We're your hosts.
0:20
Kellen, David.
0:21Speaker 2
And Maya Sage and on today's episode totally valid.
Honestly, yeah.
What is a Venus whereas?
0:31Speaker 1
Right, yeah, you know, you know what a penis is.
0:33Speaker 2
Yeah, everybody.
Yeah.
0:38Speaker 3
But Venus like, OK, so I told that story and as an ice breaker in the retreat and everybody was like.
0:44Speaker 2
That's great.
Crazy, that's.
0:45Speaker 1
Awesome you were not ostracized for saying penis.
0:48Speaker 3
No, I wasn't.
0:51Speaker 1
My oldest brother, Chris came on the show.
0:54Speaker 2
Yeah.
And would you mind saying Christopher only because of the the very next episode is going to be called Kasie and Chris, right?
And it's going to be confusing.
So I'm going to try to differentiate.
1:07Speaker 1
OK, my brother's name is Robert Christopher.
We call him Chris.
And so we will say that this episode is about Christopher.
1:16Speaker 2
I just wanted to say I really enjoyed meeting your brother for the first time.
Yeah.
And I thought he brought us some wonderfully personal songs, and I was really grateful that he wanted to share his story the way that he did with me and you.
1:32Speaker 1
Yeah, totally.
He put some thought into the songs that he wanted to talk about, and I appreciate that.
And it was, yeah, just a really cool journey through love lost and love gained.
1:44Speaker 2
Yeah, it was beautiful and there was so much more in depth and even more personal conversation that had to get cut out of the episode just because of time.
So I just want to say for anyone that is interested in jumping on our Patreon, there's even more wonderfully insightful and spiritual conversation that took place.
2:05Speaker 1
Yeah, it was actually really cool to talk about the spirituality stuff with Chris.
2:11Speaker 2
It was he felt really open and we are both really open people, so I hope he enjoyed that aspect of it.
Oh yeah.
Part of what I put here that we talked about that got cut out was all three of us shared our perspectives on what we think the soul is.
2:28Speaker 1
Oh, whoa.
2:30Speaker 2
How deep is that?
I mean, that was just really cool.
2:34Speaker 1
See, now you can see why phone conversations with Chris last like at least two hours.
2:45Speaker 2
This recording with your brother Christopher we did have to do remotely since he lives all the way out in California, so you will notice that it is a Zoom call.
2:55Speaker 1
Yeah, he sort of sounds like he's like on a on a phone.
2:57Speaker 2
Yeah, it sounds like he's on a phone, which is not really a big deal, but just a disclaimer there that the audio quality is a little bit different than it is when we are in our fancy schmancy 97-O W studio where the audio quality is perfect.
3:11Speaker 1
That is the only reason why we're telling you this.
Yeah, is because our set up here is so great and we get to have it for free to us.
3:21Speaker 2
Yeah, which is amazing.
We're so grateful for our friends here at the studio that set us up so nicely to record this podcast.
3:27Speaker 1
Yeah.
And, and to us, I mean the whole public here, yes, come in and use this for free.
3:34Speaker 2
Yeah, In fact, if you want more information on that, you should reach out to us.
Yeah, we're.
3:38Speaker 1
Good to you.
Yeah, Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
3:41Speaker 2
All right.
Well, we just want to say thank you again for Christopher for coming on our show and we hope you enjoy listening.
3:50Speaker 1
It is my great pleasure to introduce my oldest brother, Christopher.
Chris, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?
3:57Speaker 3
Let's see, I was born and raised and more, well, not born in Morris in Colorado, but raised in Morris in Colorado mostly.
Yeah.
So I am a father of two, a 16 year old and a 14 year old.
Ouch.
4:12
Yes, one of them is trying to make his driving debut here pretty soon.
And best of luck to.
4:18Speaker 2
You and your nerves.
4:20Speaker 3
Yeah, it's, it's a lot harder than I thought it would be to sit in the car during those times, but it's coming along nice.
And yeah, moved to California in 2013.
Yeah.
Married to my wife Neda.
Basically, I spend my time being a dad, husband and, you know, an active member within the Baha'i Faith.
4:42Speaker 2
Nice, wonderful.
Well, thank you for joining us today, taking time out of all of those very important things that you do.
4:49Speaker 3
Oh yeah, I'm a teacher too, by the way.
4:51Speaker 2
Yeah.
How long have you been doing that?
4:53Speaker 3
This is my 10th year teaching.
4:55Speaker 2
Oh wow.
4:56Speaker 1
It's been 10 years.
Wow.
Yeah.
Crazy.
It's.
4:59Speaker 3
Been 10 years, time does fly by all.
5:02Speaker 1
Right.
5:03Speaker 2
Did you have any particular one song that jumped out at you first thing when Kellen brought this idea to you?
5:10Speaker 3
Not really.
I did have to kind of think about it a bit.
Something that happened.
I was going true life, you know, maybe during college and and that sort of time, all of a sudden I I didn't like listening to music at all.
I didn't, I listen to the radio and like every single song is boring.
5:30
I couldn't get into any song.
I had times.
5:32Speaker 2
Like.
5:33Speaker 3
That and I would try to dig in and nothing seemed nice or good.
I didn't care about it.
And so and I would say that that was the case for maybe almost 10 years or something like that where I just did not.
I mean, it's nice to have music in the background maybe or you know, something here and there, but I never I wasn't investigating music.
5:53
As you know, Kellen knows, you know, we played music all together and we're very much involved with music in the basement, listening to music with our parents and, and that was a key part of life in a lot of ways.
So the first thing I thought of was this lull that I had that was kind of interesting.
6:10
I was, I felt like there was a block.
I couldn't get into any music at any point in time there.
6:16Speaker 1
Do you feel like there was something else going on?
Like, were you depressed during that time or was there, you know, something that maybe triggered that or did it seem independent?
6:26Speaker 3
That's interesting.
I think it was in a very difficult time of life for sure.
It was maybe the beginning of, you know, listening to Raffi because I had kids and, you know, and listening to those songs and you.
6:41Speaker 1
Didn't get into Raffi OK, I mean.
6:43Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, I've heard some of your teach.
6:46Speaker 1
Their own.
6:49Speaker 3
I think that it would, it'd be good to have some of your kids music going instead of Raffi.
Although I still like Raffi, I can't say I don't like Raffi.
Yeah.
So I think maybe it was a very difficult time, very stressful time in my life, which which maybe is is kind of strange 'cause you might think that music is the thing that needs to that would be there.
7:08Speaker 1
During that time, yeah.
But I think that for you and for me and for a lot of people, I think that listening to music is like pleasurable and like you like to listen to songs that are like good songs that you like to listen to.
And.
And then there's other people I feel like listen to music to like, you know, dig into the sadness in a way, or dig into the the stress or, and use it as like a sort of like release.
7:33
But as far as I know about, you know, what I know about you, it has been that, you know, you want to like enjoy the music.
Although I do think that I do think that you're you're writing though, your music writing has definitely come from angst and hardship.
7:53
One of my one of my very favorite songs, like ever, is Through Filtered Light that you wrote, and that's a sad song in a lot of ways.
8:03Speaker 3
Yeah.
8:03Speaker 1
But it like, I mean, it really spoke to me big time.
And, you know, so that was a song that it did make me feel like, I don't know if it made me feel, oh, I'm not alone in this because I already knew that I wasn't like alone in it.
But to hear those words and just have them fit like exactly the way that I felt.
8:22
And I think that maybe it was partially that it did come from you, you know, my older brother who I look up to and whatnot, like made it more meaningful and more impactful.
But it was one of those songs that I could just listen to and feel like the hurt in a way.
8:42Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.
There was a lot of hurt.
I remember.
I remember the moment I actually shared that song with mom and Dad.
8:48Speaker 1
Mom probably had a heart attack.
8:53Speaker 3
Yeah, they were both kind of crying and stuff, but yeah, so the music right there did help me get through.
8:59Speaker 1
So like, so writing it, you know, helped you get through that stuff did.
9:02Speaker 2
You maintain a relationship with writing music even during those times where you weren't really listening to it for pleasure very much.
9:10Speaker 3
Not really.
You know, I let Kellen write all the music and and listen to his songs mostly.
You know, that was a lot of as far as creativity and stuff like that goes.
I didn't continue, you know, I had a few songs here and there.
9:24Speaker 1
And you did help me out with my songs too, like nice writing some of that too.
So you did have a little bit of a creative hand in in that process.
9:33Speaker 2
Or maybe open to like, you know, or helping, right?
But maybe not wanting to dredge up your own crap for writing.
9:41Speaker 3
Yeah, you know, I don't know.
It's very difficult to write a song.
I right.
And, and so I almost felt like, OK, well, how do I write a song now?
I can't figure it out.
You know, it's some sort of creative thing needs to somehow occur to me.
Some of the music has come that way.
9:58Speaker 2
Yeah, and we've just talked about how like I think for things like that, you have to be in a play playful mindset.
And if you're, if your life is stressful or you have a lot of things to be taken care of, like you're not going to feel playful in the way that you, you need to be to like throw some stuff on paper or, or try out some chords or whatever it is.
10:20
I don't write songs.
I don't really know exactly how that goes.
10:23Speaker 1
Yeah, or, or you have to be like, I have to get this out of me and put it down on paper or, you know, sing it out right now or I'm going to like explode or something.
10:32Speaker 3
True desperation.
10:33Speaker 2
Yeah.
10:35Speaker 1
Yeah.
And in your case, like, yeah, you're.
10:36Speaker 3
Not like that.
10:37Speaker 1
Right.
Yeah, totally.
I mean, I feel like through filtered light must have been a little bit like that just because of how raw it is.
Like the feeling of it.
Yeah, I remember playing my song.
I'm wasting away from mom and Dad.
10:53
That was another time that they were like, Ouch, they're so bad.
I'm like I know it does feel the pain with me.
11:04Speaker 3
Wow, This is not a a judgement on your parenting.
Yeah, but here's the song, right?
Yeah.
11:14Speaker 2
It is really cool that you guys have the relationship that you do have, yeah, you know, with music and with your parents and with music through your parents, etcetera, etcetera that you can that you want to actually share those songs.
11:30
Not just that you can like if they happen to come watch you play that, but that you want to be that vulnerable with them.
That's pretty cool.
11:39Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, it is special.
I've always thought that we have a special relationship and people are often surprised at the relationship in our family, just how it how our family dynamic.
And yeah, we've had a lot of people who have sort of joined the family been like, whoa, this is awesome how you guys all, like, hang out and communicate and talk about cool stuff and deep stuff, I think.
12:07Speaker 3
The one word that I've realized of the strength in which our family has is unity.
12:13Speaker 2
I.
12:14Speaker 3
Think we appreciate unity or value unity more than other, you know, attributes to the extent that it, it allows you to move through difficulty because you always know that you're together and you know, and you're different, but that's OK, you know, So I think unity is a nice thing that we've learned from, you know, our parents.
12:40
My dad has a very high on the unity I think.
12:43Speaker 1
All right, well, would you like to introduce the first song?
12:47Speaker 3
Sure.
Yeah.
So, you know, from that dry spell of listening to music, not listening to music, you know, I was, I really wanted to.
And then I was mostly listening to like, you know, NPR or some podcasts.
That was when I was very much into Radiolab and you know, and those sort of things, This American Life word and I didn't know what to bring up.
13:11
But then, you know, the time when music all of a sudden meant something to me again in such a heartfelt and dramatic way was was actually a time when I don't.
And I wasn't sure to bring this up or not, but was the time when my now ex-wife decided to leave me.
13:30Speaker 2
Oh, of course, you need to find some songs through that.
13:34Speaker 3
So that was such a difficult time and I, and I realize now what what kind of happened was that in my mind, we're just talking about our family unity being the call word that we live by.
In a lot of ways, the idea of divorce or anything like that was completely out of my, you know, conscious existence.
13:55
I, I didn't even think that that was possible.
Why would the?
13:58Speaker 2
Parents that you guys have and the love that they have between them, of course, that's an.
14:04Speaker 3
Example.
That example I think led to maybe some naivete as I said.
14:13Speaker 1
Close enough and.
14:15Speaker 3
And having a, you know, a bit of a ignorance about, you know, potential differences that might arise to a split.
And I certainly didn't want the split.
But we moved to Sacramento and a year later, you know, she she decided she wanted to move on.
14:33
And for me, it was hard to to think about not having her, you know, as a part of my life.
But it was also it was mostly difficult for the two kids, you know, for me.
So an introduction to my my first song.
It's actually, you know, there was a month there that I swear I couldn't breathe deeper than just the the shallowest of breaths for every single breath for a month.
14:56
You know, it was so traumatic for me.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so, and then seeing it with my kids and that sort of thing.
So the song that kind of would come on the radio is the song called That Tear in My Heart by 21 Pilots.
15:50Speaker 2
takes
a song to come around.
15:52Speaker 1
I remember you sending this out and we're like, you know, this is how I'm feeling right now.
And I was like, poor mom, she's going to listen to this song and know that this is how you're feeling and.
16:03Speaker 3
Oh wow, I sent this out, I didn't know.
16:05Speaker 1
That yeah, Yep, I do remember that.
16:07Speaker 3
Oh yeah, yeah.
So this this song has actually a a a positive sense to it as well.
16:14Speaker 2
Yeah, I can.
I can hear that.
I I like that.
It's it's, it's a painful lyric and then it's almost an upbeat sound.
16:23Speaker 3
Yeah, and it's a tear in my heart and it, I forget the exact lyric, but something along the lines of that it to tell you that, to show you that you're alive.
16:31Speaker 2
Yeah.
16:32Speaker 3
So almost the awakening or something that became very real.
You know, it's almost like in today's society, the difficulty is the fakeness or the not knowing what's real or how to really get into things.
When something like that happens, it's very all sudden life becomes very real.
16:49
Yeah.
16:50Speaker 1
Yeah, and that realness is like unavoidable.
16:53Speaker 3
Yeah.
16:54Speaker 1
Like there isn't, there isn't.
16:55Speaker 3
Difficulty.
16:56Speaker 1
Right.
There isn't like an escape from it, especially when you have the kids.
17:00Speaker 3
Especially when you have the kids.
17:02Speaker 2
Yeah.
And then the thing about that is that your emotions are pretty mixed up in terms of you have all this grief that you have to deal with saying goodbye to a relationship.
But of course, you have to bring some gratitude into the picture, right?
17:20
Because I just happened to be the type of person that will walk through heartbreak and not regret that.
Like, I would usually do that over again if I was given the choice because it mattered and it was real.
17:35
Like you're saying, you know, and you ended up with two kids out of it.
And I know that that heartbreak can be really confusing because it's like, there, there can't be regret here.
But then it's also like, I just had to go through this like horrible pain.
17:54Speaker 3
Yeah.
I mean, I think that that idea is just in life in general, it's just going to be filled with there's going to be difficulties, there's going to be difficulties.
And so how do you know, how do you go through those difficulties?
18:11
And it's not going to be fair, you know, that there sometimes you're the 1 making it not fair.
Sometimes you're the one, you know, feeling the brunt of the injustice.
But that, you know, life itself, at least on this plane, I don't think ends up with fairness all the way around.
18:28
You know you got to be OK with that.
18:32Speaker 1
Yeah, I agree.
Did you have like a realization when you heard the song that this was like the snap out of that 10 year dry spell?
18:40Speaker 3
You know what happened is I after I heard this song, I started listening to Pandora, which I never listened to any of these streaming things before.
18:49Speaker 1
And this newfangled technology?
18:51Speaker 3
Yeah, like what is this and.
18:54Speaker 1
Give me back my vinyl.
18:58Speaker 3
So when I was listening, I started there was actually a quote in the Baha'i writings that brought me to.
It's like, OK, let me think about music.
The quote is, see, I have it here.
We barely have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up to the realm on high.
19:18
That's good.
Yeah.
It's a way to almost climb to the heavens in a sense.
So I started listening to Pandora and just digging in and I forget the first stations that I was listening to.
But then Band Of Horses became this band that I never even heard before heard of before, and it was just hitting all the right notes.
19:41Speaker 2
You know all.
19:42Speaker 1
Of their songs.
19:43Speaker 2
That is awesome.
I love it when you find a new artist that is just, you just can't stop going through their discography and loving it.
19:51Speaker 1
It is it.
It is funny how like it's almost like like finding like that special relationship in a way.
Like wow, like this, this pain is making me feel things I've never felt before or like it's been so long since I felt this way it.
20:07Speaker 3
Is kind of like a new lover.
No one's going to love you.
I just listened to him live.
I was just at their.
20:14Speaker 1
Oh yeah, you went to their show Word.
Yeah.
20:17Speaker 2
That's awesome.
Was it a good show?
Oh it.
20:20Speaker 3
Was so good awesome.
I played this song.
It's.
21:14
Yeah.
This is such a heartbreaking song.
It's so.
But it it really described the pain I was going through.
21:24Speaker 1
Yeah, it is another.
Like it's it's describing the emotional pain as physical pain.
Like it's feeling like a limb torn off.
21:30Speaker 3
And then there's also reaching back like no one's going to love you more than I do, you know, it's almost as.
21:35Speaker 1
You know, like.
21:36Speaker 3
Why are you doing this and?
21:38Speaker 1
Reaching back, yeah, there's like a pleading.
21:40Speaker 3
So I was actually a stay at home dad at the time when she decided to to leave.
And so I needed to get a job.
And so first job I could find was a part time job with the state.
And in that job I was basically filing stuff.
I was just filing, filing, filing, you know, and so I could put headphones on and just file all day long.
22:02
And I, I repeated this song probably 20,000 times over and over and over.
I only was playing that song and I was just, you know, in the state and every once in a while my boss would come by and I'd be like nothing, you know?
22:22Speaker 1
He's like, he's like, there's another one who just cannot stand filing.
It's this is breaking people's souls.
22:32Speaker 3
So I did.
I sent this song to my ex-wife saying this is how I feel right now.
She said almost exactly what you said.
Maya that.
22:43Speaker 2
Oh wow.
Oh, like she just took it.
22:45Speaker 3
The flipped way, yeah.
And I was like.
22:49Speaker 1
I I did consider that the first time I listened to the song too, of like, like, no one's ever going to love you more than I do does sound like kind of a crappy thing to say in a way.
A.
22:58Speaker 3
Little bit of a.
23:00Speaker 1
Trying to say backhanded compliment.
23:02Speaker 3
Like a backhanded.
Yeah, It's not necessarily the nicest thing to say, I don't think.
That's what I don't think he's going for Nice right there.
It doesn't seem like.
23:11Speaker 2
Yeah.
23:11Speaker 1
I guess that's fair, yeah.
23:13Speaker 2
Well, but I mean, maybe there's maybe it's not intentionally mean either.
Yeah.
Like maybe there's just a lot of truth to it, which is also true.
I mean, especially with a relationship with someone that also brings children.
I mean, in a way I think there is.
23:29
You know, you, when you go through a lot with somebody and you've been with them, you know, through many evolutions of themselves, there's truth to it.
There is no one who's gonna love them like you did.
Maybe, right.
I mean, there's a lot of truth to that.
And maybe that isn't supposed to be mean, but it can hurt.
23:48Speaker 3
Right.
So you know, at that time when somebody's trying to leave you, I think everything that you say can and will be used against you.
It doesn't matter what you're.
23:58Speaker 1
Saying Oh yeah.
24:00Speaker 2
There needs to be breakup Miranda rights actually.
24:09Speaker 1
Please pardon this interruption, we just wanted to encourage you to follow us on whatever podcasting platform you use.
It helps others discover our show.
You can look forward to a new episode on the 1st of the month every month.
If you want to hear an uncut interview two weeks early, join our Patreon.
24:28
Now back to your regular scheduled programming.
On the other hand, you did find some love of music again.
24:37Speaker 3
You know, and Band Of Horses was again, you know, the entry to all kinds of music.
And then I started listening to Phoenix and OK, well, I, I said that as if there's a long list, but there, I think there is a list, but I can't remember.
24:53Speaker 1
Yeah, no, I, I, I feel that.
I know how that works.
24:57Speaker 2
No, but that is cool.
I mean, it, that makes sense that I don't know, We've talked about this before in terms of what music is really meant to be or what good music does for people.
And I feel like it makes sense that the door opened up again for you when you needed it, like when you needed to like, hear that heartbreak coming from somebody else and understanding that pain, like seeing it mirrored back at you.
25:24
Like, yeah, not not as much as a want.
And oh I want to find the music but Oh my God I need this like outlet.
25:31Speaker 1
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
At that point, you were just sort of, your heart was open to it in a way that maybe it hadn't been, actually.
25:37Speaker 3
Felt like I was going underground and it's like, what?
There's all this awesome music I didn't even know existed.
This was, you know, old music too.
It's not like it was brand new at that time.
It was old music.
Some of your listeners may remember our dad being on the podcast.
25:52
I think that's what's interesting in my conversations with him about once a week have a nice conversation.
It is a interesting how parallel I feel and I keep talking about this every time we talk my divorce or that breakup was is very similar to passing of our mom, his wife.
26:11
So, and I think in a lot of ways I've been thinking about this in terms of the inability to comprehend that something might happen.
26:20Speaker 1
Is actually what?
26:20Speaker 3
Trauma is, I've heard somebody say that like the that trauma is, is you can't place it within any sort of category or it's not within a narrative or story that you can actually understand.
It's like it's something that sits outside and it's unresolved.
It doesn't have a place.
26:38Speaker 1
Yeah.
So, so like so there's no place to put it.
So there you you fall out of balance.
26:43Speaker 3
You don't know what's left, what's right.
You don't understand how to move forward with that trauma.
I think music helps to start to paint a narrative for you like this, this nobody's going to love you as much as I do.
Or it's like a.
26:59Speaker 1
More than I do.
27:01Speaker 3
It's such a because you want to know that other people have gone through it.
It starts to place it within a narrative that's already been there and and you can start telling.
27:11Speaker 1
Yeah.
So it was like a narrative, right?
It was a narrative that you didn't have for yourself prior to this.
And so, but having that narrative sort of told to you through song allows that to become part of your narrative, then.
27:30
Wow.
Hey, that's pretty deep, Chris.
27:33Speaker 2
That is actually really fascinating and it's making me think of something else.
Have you any of you heard of the therapy?
EMDR therapy?
27:42Speaker 3
The tapping and and that stuff, yeah.
27:45Speaker 2
Tapping or walking I think can also do that.
Basically it's a way to.
It's supposedly a way to activate both sides of your brain.
And what's interesting is the way that one therapist explained this to me, you made me think of it because he very much would frame it as like a, a way to file away that trauma.
28:08
Almost.
When you are doing that bilateral stimulation and your whole brain is lit up, you're actually able to kind of dig in and access these traumatic memories maybe through a different Ave. so that it doesn't bring up quite as much of A like panic attack or whatever it may be.
28:23
But you can access that trauma and then maybe have more power to then file it away into whatever part of your identity or your brain or your stories that you tell yourself about your life.
Maybe you like have the control to put it where you can sit with it easier, I guess, and carry it through the rest of your life and not have it maybe making decisions for you or whatever it may be.
28:48
I just think it's interesting because I do think that music has of way of activating both sides of your brain.
And I'm not a neuroscientist, so like, I'm sure there's a lot of this that I'm kind of pulling out of my ass, but music does do that, right?
29:04Speaker 1
I mean, yeah, I think it lights up all sorts of places in your brain.
It connects all sorts of things, yeah.
29:08Speaker 2
Yeah.
So I wonder if it's if it's, yeah, another avenue of actually doing that, like digging up your trauma in this like safe place in in this, in this space of the song, just in the way that the EMDR would, you know, almost allow you to look at it from outside of yourself a little bit, a little bit of distance from the emotion.
29:31Speaker 1
Yeah, and, and an image that I that just popped in my head is that it like gives you like a bag to carry it in like the trauma.
So like, you know, you still don't necessarily have like that that narrative within you, but now you have a bag to have that you can carry it around.
29:46Speaker 3
With Yeah, I find that the story of the victimhood story is such a powerful story and it's so easy to tell because it's so emotionally present when it happens, that that story becomes your story immediately after a trauma, I think after these sort of things.
30:07
And I think that what the music helped me do was to move past a victimhood mindset and a victimhood storytelling to myself and get out of that and kind of move into a, you know, an understanding of the value of nobility of my soul and of other people's souls and, and the difficulty of life in general.
30:31
The the ups and downs that everybody's really trying, you know, and placing it within a different framework that eventually, you know, leads you to forgive, to understand and place meaning in whatever that happened.
30:46
It's, you know, then it's, it's, it's not for me to necessarily understand the insurance and outs 'cause it wasn't me making all those decisions.
But, but I can place it over there now like a bag or, you know, like, OK, that's, that's over there.
And, and so I have, even though I still see the, you know, the remnants, the, the scars, you know, and, and all those things, the wound is not completely healed.
31:10
I mean, even with my own kids, you know, there might even still be continued difficulty because of this series of events.
31:18Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, it was super difficult, but that's really cool that the music helped so much.
31:28Speaker 2
Well, and I can see that in the first song that you gave to us, the sound of that was very like empowering it.
It's that heartbreak, but it's also the, like you said, getting out of the this happened to me and somebody broke my heart.
Yes, that's true.
31:44
But also I'm alive there.
That that just little bit of like, I don't know, just the tiny bit of gratitude for the whole thing and the whole humanity of it.
You.
31:55Speaker 3
Know.
Yeah, yeah.
31:59Speaker 1
1.
31:59Speaker 3
More kind of tight, tight things maybe a little bit together here because I went from, you know, that hardship from divorce and and that time and and it's not like it's completely left, but it actually opened up a door to meeting my wife that I have now you know, my wife that I love so much and have so many deep connections with this.
32:21
This song was I never heard of Blue Rodeo before They're from Canada, which of course that is from Canada and she likes to rub that in your face and this song is so good.
I just love it was a connection between me and her that I love this song instantly Try by Blue Rodeo don't.
33:35Speaker 1
So she showed you the song?
33:38Speaker 3
She showed me.
33:38Speaker 2
This song, I love that.
33:40Speaker 3
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
So that that's what the meeting.
33:42Speaker 1
Was wow, so your your life sort of went from like just like ruin and like the like depths of despair and it was music was the ladder that helped you climb out of it.
33:56Speaker 3
Yeah, I think music was a definitely a key piece and even all the music that I listened to during those trying times between separation and being married kind of has become a lot of what my kids listen.
34:10Speaker 2
To wow.
34:13Speaker 3
It's it's sort of their, you know, baseline of music, you know, in a long.
34:18Speaker 1
Phase.
So is there something particular about this song that that hits you like as compared to maybe other Blue Rodeo songs?
34:27Speaker 2
I just have to say really quick that I could see on your face with this song actually more than the other two.
Like you lit up and I'm sure it was mostly thinking about your wife, but I literally just I saw your face light up.
I kind of saw you like get a different smile on your face.
34:44
And we've seen this whole episode so far.
So it obviously has that, that spark of making you think of your when you fell in love maybe.
34:54Speaker 3
Yes, I that's actually to your question, Kellen.
Yeah, it's more of just thinking about my wife and that connection more than it is the song itself.
Yeah, and it's and it's one of her favorites of movie.
So that's why I was this one.
35:10Speaker 1
Well, that makes a lot of sense.
Yeah.
So will you tell us just a little bit about your wife and how you met and that story?
35:19Speaker 3
Yeah.
So we we're both on a dating website, believe it or not, hey.
35:26Speaker 1
Newfangled technology again.
35:28Speaker 3
Dating website.
35:31Speaker 1
Yeah, a bahai dating website.
35:33Speaker 3
But he says it doesn't work.
It's a bahai dating website.
It's really.
35:37Speaker 2
Bad.
Oh, of course, that kind of makes sense.
35:39Speaker 3
Actually, it's like the pictures just hardly even pop up and they're all, well, that.
35:44Speaker 1
Probably worked in your favor.
35:46Speaker 3
Yes, I was like, that is perfect.
So, yeah.
So because it's a a Baha'i website for meeting somebody, it really cuts through a lot of the layers because are you are you going to, you don't have to do this.
36:04
Ask a person out or you know, see if they, you know, want to take it to the to the park.
Beyond friendship, you know, that's our all that stuff is sure.
36:13Speaker 1
Kind of, yeah, that part's done.
And also the Baha'i thing is done like you know, like you know the.
36:18Speaker 3
Baha'i thing is there.
36:19Speaker 1
Aren't people going through your profile and being like Baha'i copy paste based on what the hell is the high right?
36:24Speaker 3
Yeah, right.
And I was definitely open to, you know, not up a high.
I was on all the other dating apps and stuff.
But so I went on.
I don't know like 50 dates like first dates.
36:37Speaker 2
Yeah, wow, like.
36:38Speaker 1
Adam Sandler it was.
36:40Speaker 3
Really.
Like Adam Sandler?
Yeah, none of them were draped.
Yeah, not the same.
36:44Speaker 2
One every time.
36:48Speaker 3
But yeah, so then she contacted me and and then we, you know, the first, if you know anything about the Baha'i Faith, you know, we exchanged emails 1st and then I and I said, let's take this to Baha'i second base and that would be a phone call.
So so we talked on the phone and didn't stop laughing the entire time.
37:10
We were just laughing this the whole time.
It was so easy, so much laughter and depth, you know, immediately.
So I was very hopeful at that moment.
And I, I, you know, was thinking that this really could be it even on that first phone call.
37:28
And so she actually was in between jobs and they sent.
And so she went down to a Baha'i temple in Chile, which always takes volunteers.
And so she was going to volunteer down there for a while.
And so we got to know each other through the time difference.
37:46
Is is actually quite different in Chile than it is here, even though it seems like it's just straight out.
37:51Speaker 1
But it's.
37:52Speaker 3
Not and so we got to know each other through that.
And then I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm pretty sure I'm going to marry you.
And she's like, oh, you, you better not say that yet.
So, and then her job, her new job happened to have her training was in the Bay Area.
38:11
So I'm here in Sacramento.
So that's only, you know, an hour and a half away.
So they sent her here.
And then so we, we were able to get to know each other in person and she met the kids and that sort of thing many times because she would come on a training from her work.
38:27
So and then they also sent her to Colorado for training.
And then that's when she met Mom.
38:33Speaker 1
Dad.
38:34Speaker 3
At that point in time and within the Baha'i Faith, you do ask for consent from the parents.
And so she wanted to meet my parents and that sort of thing.
And, and then I was asking, ask my mom and dad for consent.
And they're like, don't ask us.
38:51
Of course we'll say yes.
Like, you know, I really want you to, to know.
I really want you to think about this.
And like, not really.
They never.
I don't know how seriously they took.
39:01Speaker 2
It, well, they probably took it seriously, but also at the end of the day they're like, well, we're not going to deny anything that's making him happy.
It's obvious that she makes you happy.
So it's like, of course they're going to support that.
That's the kind of parents that they sound like so.
39:15Speaker 3
Yeah, that's definitely that's that unity of my dad again, just yeah, this whole whatever you want sort of thing.
So, so yeah, then it was actually we decided we wanted to get married and then COVID hit and the.
39:30Speaker 1
Travel restrictions were and so she was in Canada at this point.
39:35Speaker 3
And she was in Canada.
Yeah.
And it ended up being a year and a half before she could actually get.
39:41Speaker 2
Here.
39:42Speaker 3
So it took a long time.
We, we figured we had a long time to just duck out of the whole marriage thing if we wanted to.
So, but we eventually just knew that we would just wait it out and she would come and she did.
39:58Speaker 1
So yeah, thank you for sharing that.
But also I just wanted to say that.
I've known you my whole darn life and you know, and I've heard a lot of this stuff, but it's still, it's, it's nice to hear it again.
And there's also just more depth to it than I had heard before.
40:14Speaker 3
Yeah.
40:16Speaker 2
Yeah, we we kind of took a little journey with you through your personal evolution.
So that was really cool for me as someone who didn't know you before now.
40:28Speaker 1
Yeah, and I definitely.
40:29Speaker 3
Easy way to get deeper.
40:30Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, it, it really is.
40:33Speaker 3
You know, there was a, for some reason, reminded me of a time we were on a retreat and we were planning for we're we're on a planning retreat.
So there was a little icebreaker that was pick a song that you remember and it has a memory.
40:51
Oh, OK.
So every one of us, you know, got on our phones and I was trying to think of, you know, one of them and, and then I said, Oh, yeah, I remember this song.
But it's it's a little bit graphic.
41:04Speaker 2
Oh yeah.
41:05Speaker 3
Not sure because not the song, because the song actually is.
How's it go?
Like Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo like I'm your V.
41:17Speaker 2
Oh yeah, yeah, you're fine.
41:18Speaker 1
You're fine.
Your desire.
41:20Speaker 3
Desire.
Yeah.
So I remember.
So I chose that song and it was because I remember in the backyard of when I was about four or five in the backyard with a friend who came up that lived down the street.
41:38
I remember him being kind of a kind of a mean friend, but still he was a friend.
And and we are listening to that song when my mom had it blasting inside the house and we were in the backyard so we could hear it and and we thought it was saying I'm your penis.
41:53
I'm your that's fair.
We were just laughing like we're four years old.
We're like is.
42:02Speaker 2
This on your.
42:02Speaker 3
Penis this did.
42:07Speaker 1
My mom like the song.
Whoa.
42:09Speaker 3
Mom likes this.
42:10Speaker 2
Song it's pretty funny so.
42:13Speaker 3
Yeah, so it took, it took a while for me to realize that it says Venus.
So.
42:19Speaker 2
Totally valid, honestly, yeah.
What is a Venus whereas?
42:23Speaker 1
Right.
Yeah.
You know, you know what a penis is?
Yeah, everybody.
Yeah, but.
42:29Speaker 3
Venus I was like, OK, so I told that story as an icebreaker in the retreat, and everybody was like.
42:35Speaker 2
That's great.
Crazy.
42:37Speaker 1
That's awesome you were not ostracized for saying penis no.
42:42Speaker 3
I wasn't ostracized at that point.
42:45Speaker 1
All right.
Well, thank you once again, yeah, for coming on.
I hope that you enjoyed it.
I know we did.
42:52Speaker 2
We did, yes.
Thank you.
42:54Speaker 3
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, it was nice.
Thank you so much for having me share stories.
42:59Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
So welcome.
Thanks for tuning in to That Takes Me Back broadcasting from 97-O W studio in beautiful Grand Junction, Co.
43:13Speaker 2
Today's episode was recorded, produced, and edited by your hosts Kellen David and Maya Sage.
Did you know that there's a lot of our conversation that doesn't make the final episode?
If you want to hear full uncut interviews, you can join our community on Patreon, where you could chat with fans of the show, guests of the show, as well as the hosts of the show.
43:35
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