TTMB Podcast

In these episodes of TTMB we travel all the way back to the era of records and cassette tapes and driving around to catch late-night radio deep dives. Maia's good friend Todd made lasting connections to friends and music during his formative years, and music continues to be a throughline in his relationships now. This interview was so wonderful and so long that we have divided it into two parts. Enjoy!

Full Transcripts

You know, when you hear a song and it triggers a memory, it instantly takes you back to a particular person or place or moment.

This podcast is all about that song and those memories.

Welcome to That Takes Me Back, where we share stories that connect music and memories.

We're your hosts.

0:20

Kellen, David.

And Maya Sage and on today's episode.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so I did, I, I, I would record my voice and bleep out the words, but then it turned out that I was only doing that like on the left side.

0:38

So it was like coming through loud and clear on the right side.

And I had no idea.

And but, and I even told one of my friends I was like, don't worry.

Like you can blast it, you know, I, I bleeped it out no problem.

And he did.

And and those F words rang rang out.

Not only did the F words ring out, but on top of the F words was.

0:57

Yeah, I decided to to cover it with a donkey noise for some reason.

On this episode of That Takes Me Back, we welcomed one of my really good friends, Todd, someone who I've known for years.

1:16

And our friendship kind of revolves around music actually, and exchanging music with each other and going to concerts together.

So it was kind of he was a perfect guest to have on the podcast.

Yeah, it sounds like from our interview we were able to extract from him that that's how he has maintained his friendships throughout his life is by exchanging and listening to music with people.

1:42

Yeah, yeah.

And a little bit of that is like from a technology age that's long past now like he.

He he was turning records, vinyl records into cassette tapes.

Records into cassette tapes.

Yeah, and that was a a way that he connected with people.

1:58

Yeah, in a way that he found music, like just having people bring them to him, right?

Yeah.

And some of that stuff apparently stuck with him for the long run.

So I think that's pretty cool.

We had a really good time going down memory lane with him.

Yeah, it was really nice.

And it was such a long and awesome conversation that we did not want to cut a lot of that out.

2:20

So we are going to release a Part 2.

Yeah.

So that will be mid month.

Yeah, there was just so much content and rather than cutting out a lot, it just makes sense to have a 2 parter.

And in this case we wanted to do a 2 parter two weeks apart from one another.

2:40

So stay tuned to finish up the rest of Todd's interview.

Righteous.

We could be very linear in the in this discussion, which would then take me back to, as I mentioned earlier, you know, early 70s Neil Diamond.

2:58

Yes.

Or we could jump ahead to when music really started playing a much bigger role.

And I can name a Robin Hitchcock song.

We will probably start your first song on like the first song that meant something to you.

3:14

But before we get there, can I get just a little flavor of like what music was in your childhood and like what your parents started you on and kind of what your first memories of listening to music in general are?

My parents were country western.

3:30

OK.

Waylon Jennings.

Kris Kristofferson.

Totally.

You know that that style of music, Willie Nelson, every time I drive their vehicle, they still have that type of old country on on the.

Like to this?

Day to this.

Very day.

3:45

Oh wow.

Oh yeah, Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be Cowboys.

Stuff like that.

Yep, Yep.

But I love it.

You know, they didn't play a whole heck of a lot of that as in a family setting and stuff like that.

OK, I never, I never was heavily influenced by by their music.

4:06

You know, I remember coming home from church on a Sunday morning begging them to put on Casey Kasem's Top 40.

See, that's so fascinating because we have both shared our experiences of music being like part.

Like very wrapped up in our parents.

4:23

Yeah.

Right.

And that's, you know, that might be the age differences between us because, you know, my, my parents had the only reason they had interest and pop music is because of of their kids.

And you know, I remember asking to go to, I think the first concert I went to was probably Rush and it was with a group of I probably was a soft, I think I was a sophomore in high school and all these friends were juniors and seniors and they were having heart palpitations about it because it's like, well, you know, this isn't, this isn't the right music.

4:59

And you're going with a group and you have an hour and a half drive to the concert venue.

And but yet this was a group of people I'd been hanging around with.

We were, we were in choir together and we were in it within choir.

There was a special group you auditioned for.

5:14

And we were all in this special group and everything.

Hold please, because I forgot that you were in choir.

I was I was a music nerd in high school.

But I didn't know about.

5:30

So did you sing at church too?

Is that where it started?

No, not in church.

Oh, OK.

Well, I just know that some choir people it's not.

In front of God?

No, definitely not.

In front of God, I I am because of the group of friends I was with.

I think that's how I really got into I was in band and choir became kind of a second type of thing.

5:51

Right, just another music related thing you could do for like an elective.

Exactly, totally, exactly.

And I enjoyed it and it was better than the other offerings at at the high school I went to.

So that's.

But what's this special choir group?

It was called pop Singers, and it was, it was a group.

6:11

I can't remember 24 of us.

It was like maybe 20 singers and four musicians.

Oh cool.

And one of the I I've still haven't figured out exactly how I got into the group other than the fact that as as a male I played piano and so therefore during the female portion of of the performance there was a guy that could play the piano.

6:38

OK.

So.

OK.

I think, I think that was one of the big things that got me into the group.

But we were, you know, we were essentially we're a tight knit group.

We did everything together in school and out of school.

A tight knit group of 24, yes.

6:55

Wow.

Yeah, we, and that's I think 10 of us, 10 or 12 of us went to this Rush concert.

Oh, wow.

So.

That sounds like fun.

Oh, it was it.

You know, it was one of the things that made high school bearable for me.

Right.

7:11

'Cause I hated high school.

Yeah, that was the other thing is my senior year in in high school and being in pop singers, my choir was right after lunch break.

So my, the, the music, the choir director would give me the keys to the choir room.

7:29

I'd always bring an album to school and then I would lock myself.

I'd finish lunch and I'd go and lock myself into the quiet in the choir room and play that album and people would be pounding on the door.

So I didn't let him in until like 3 or 4 minutes before the bell rang for the first for that period to start 'cause I was just me time.

7:49

That is so cool that you were able to carve that out in a school.

Yes, it was something that got me through my senior year in a big way.

Wow.

Yeah, having those connections and just yeah, the, the camaraderie, yes.

Yeah, I I feel that.

8:05

Yes.

I was a theater nerd, OK?

And so yeah, like, having that camaraderie definitely goes a long way when you're having a rough time otherwise.

Exactly.

And that's that's we were, you know, choir, theater, band, we were all together so.

Yeah.

8:20

Yeah, that's awesome.

On on a a Rush Note saw that they just they're touring with a new drummer this year.

Yes, that's exciting.

Except as of right now, they're not coming to Denver.

Oh, OK.

That was a hell of a ice bridge.

Yeah, it was.

It was.

I thought I had a good question, but I'm glad that you hijacked it.

8:38

Sorry.

No, that's all right.

Used.

To it by now.

I am.

So you said kind of the first song that takes you back to what music means to you.

Robin Hitchcock.

We could even go a little bit further back to high school.

8:54

What's high school takes you back?

The church blurred Crusade.

9:32

So this came out when you were in high school?

In high school I bought them.

I bought a stereo with like my first two paychecks when I started working and a friend of mine worked at a record store.

And so since I had since I had the the stereo system, he would come over with albums and one day he came over and he's like, you got to listen to this and that this was, this was the album.

10:00

That's so cool and and did it get you from the start you were from?

The start I've seen, I've seen the church like 8 * 6 or 7 times I think maybe 8 and they're coming again next summer and I plan on going to see.

Him nice.

That's awesome.

10:17

Where are they coming to They're.

Going to be playing in Denver.

They were supposed to play in Denver this past summer, but due to medical issues they cancelled the tour.

Oh.

No.

So but they rescheduled for next summer.

So as long as it works into my schedule, this is yeah, this is when I'm coming.

10:34

I'm going to come go see them again.

Make it #8 or 9 or whatever.

That's awesome.

So do you know, like what it was about it that hit you?

It's the layering it, it's, you know, this, this was like college radio at the time.

10:52

And I couldn't, by that point in time, I couldn't stand Top 40, Top 40 played, you know, 10 songs in rotation that you'd hear so many times a day you'd vomit.

But this was college radio.

This was something different.

This wasn't something everybody was listening to.

11:08

There was just a small group of us.

And there's just it.

It's a 23 originally a four piece band, 2 guitars, a bass player and a drummer.

And the layers that they get with their instrumentation in the music is just exceptional.

11:28

And I've always enjoyed Steve Kilby's voice, so.

I want to do a little, just a bit 'cause I have the song like so I feel like it's 'cause you sent it to me.

Oh God yes, this song live is just for me, mind blowing.

I think it's really cool how you're talking about liking a band that was like not mainstream and here they are touring over 40 years later.

11:53

Yes, you know, and The thing is, after this album, you know, if if you're not familiar with the church, if you hear Under the Milky Way, you would say, oh, OK, I know that song because the Under the Milky Way was their their hit in the late 80s off of their Starfish album.

12:13

But this was this was before that.

This album was 2 albums before.

OK.

So.

I can, I can hear the layers, yes.

I can totally see how this would be awesome.

Yeah, this is what I call listening music.

12:35

Yes, exactly.

I can put this on and work because it just I I float with float with it all the time.

This would have got me at that age.

Too, Yes.

Because it actually about that age I was digging into like my mom listening to U2, right?

12:57

That kind of sound, you're just like, damn, this is good.

And this is the same genre.

This is the same early U2, early church, all of that.

Yeah, yeah.

If I remember, this is like a six or seven minute song.

13:12

OK, that it definitely has those 80s drums, yes.

Very much so, and.

The fact that it's a 6 minute song is so great on a fairly.

I mean, it's a 56 minute album too.

And when I listened to it, it was two sides.

13:28

Well.

You had to flip it over.

All right, the B side.

Yes, somewhere in my house I actually have the original vinyl that when I when I finally bought it.

No way you should have stuff like that on the wall.

13:45

Not I should have that stuff down and I should have it out of storage and listening to it.

So I want to go back for a second because you had said you finally bought this album.

So does that imply that you were using your friend who worked at a music store as sort of like a library?

14:04

Yes, very much so.

And to be honest, I might not have bought the album.

It might have been gifted to me.

Because the way the way it worked is a lot of people I knew would buy the album.

They'd buy the album, come over to me with an album in hand and a cassette in hand and say, will you record this?

14:23

Put put this on cassette for me.

Yeah.

And and then you can keep the album that that's that's how I'm going to pay you.

Nice.

That's a that's a sweet gig.

Yeah, so I ended up getting a lot of albums in that in that way because I would record, I'd transfer him to a cassette forum and.

14:41

Yeah, they wanted the convenience of the.

Cassette.

Yep, exactly dude.

That's actually awesome.

Like, wow, yeah.

So.

It makes me sad that that side gig couldn't even exist anymore because you don't need to put.

You don't need to do it.

There's so.

14:56

Cool though.

I did think that with the way that things kind of work today, like you probably could create a business of making a mix tape and make it literally on a cassette and like people would buy it.

Oh yeah, yeah, definitely.

Maybe we need to get both of your guys skills because you OK Actually I want to show you this because I think you'd think it was cute.

15:17

He mentioned something about making mixtapes for people and what was that that?

Minimum wage.

They might be giants.

Oh yes.

I guess like if you got, what was it you got to the end of the tape or something.

Yeah, if if you had like just 30 seconds at the end of the tape.

15:33

You would just pop.

This just put this on there.

I mean the the whimsy we're missing out on, yes, without having things like cassette tapes.

Yeah, yeah, Without having like that time limitation of like, yeah, like I don't want to blank 30 seconds at the end of this tape or.

15:52

You also said that you freaking tried to bleep out over the cuss words so you could give it to your friend.

Yeah, and they.

Wouldn't get in trouble by their.

Parents Yeah, yeah.

So so I did, I, I, I would record my voice and bleep out the words, but then it turned out that I was only doing that like on the left side.

16:12

So it was like coming through loud and clear on the right side.

And I had no idea.

And.

But.

And I even told one of my friends I was like, don't worry, like you can blast it, you know, I I bleeped it out no problem.

And he did and and those F words rang, rang out.

Not only did the F words ring out, but on top of the F words was.

16:31

Yeah, I decided to to cover it with a donkey noise for some reason.

Just calling.

Attention to the to the customer.

Is perfect, yeah.

Good way to highlight it, yeah.

Cracked me up so bad.

16:46

That's so fantastic.

OK, so that was a you hard listening to this album.

Is this something that like, was it part of your social life too?

Was I mean, like it was because you were Oh yeah, you were taking the music and you were and making the cassettes and handing those out.

17:03

And so, so like talking about the music and appreciating music was part of how you manage friendships.

Yes, it it, it was, it was, it was a big part.

It was a big part of a small group of us that then other people on the fringe would listen to.

17:24

And it's, you know, that there were, there was a group of us that like this alternative college radio stuff, but there was also a larger part that, you know, stuck to the Top 40 rock type stuff.

Well, you guys were the pop singers.

Right, of course, had to live up to that, that moniker.

17:40

But yeah, we, you know, we would share, we, we would share music and you know, because the 80s was different, you know, it was, it was albums, it was radio, it was cassettes.

If you had an old enough car, you might have an 8 track tape player.

17:57

But you know, you'd, you'd share, you'd, you know, the number of times that friends and I would just sit in my bedroom on my bed spinning records.

And sometimes we would just sit and listen to the whole thing.

Or sometimes we'd be track by track.

18:15

You know, I mentioned Robin Hitchcock a while ago.

I was introduced to Robin Hitchcock because my friend and I, we're cruising around town and the college radio station on, I believe it was Wednesday nights, would play back then.

18:31

Back then, technically you couldn't.

They couldn't.

A radio station couldn't play an album cover to cover due to copyright issues.

But college radio, being college radio, had an exception.

So the local station, which wasn't very powerful.

18:48

So even though I was only like 10 miles from it, not even was right on the edge of it.

So my friend and I would get in the car and drive around.

And on this particular night, they were spinning the element of light by Robin Hitchcock.

And it was one of these moments where I literally it was going to be an early night for us because we both had early mornings.

19:12

But as the as they weren't even through the first side yet, we had to pull over because we were like, wow, incredible.

And then when I went to drop them off, the album wasn't over with yet, but we sat.

We just sat in the car and finished it.

19:28

Yeah, I love that.

So but that's, you know, that that's that's how music is was shared at that time and how we worked around it and everything.

Yeah, yeah, that's so awesome.

19:56

It's so cool that that's, yeah.

How you connected with people is, is the sharing of music.

Do you feel like you were more of a receiver or a giver of like introducing the music?

Receiver OK, without a doubt.

20:12

My friend Steve, just he would bring albums over all the time and it was always a new experience.

And then I had some of my friend, other friends more into the rock side of things that, you know, I remember a friend bringing over a Night Ranger album, which was a more of AII can't go as far as to say big hair, big hair, 80s band like Poison, but you know, it similar genre.

20:44

And a couple years, I probably would have been my freshman year in college, a friend came over with the current release from the Replacements, you know, so I people kept bringing albums to me to record to.

21:00

Yeah.

So I'd, I'd get, I'd get a bunch of different stuff.

And that was one of the thing, I guess one of the things I was, that's how I was introduced to Rush.

OK. 2112, somebody asked me to put it to a cassette forum.

So I was, I was very much a receiver.

21:20

People kept bringing stuff to me so.

So can you even imagine like how different you would be or your music taste would be if you hadn't?

Oh yeah.

Ended up doing that.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, you know, you asked.

21:36

You asked what I grew up with, and that country was what my parents did.

But one of the biggest, one of the biggest influences of my younger years was my aunt.

And I can't remember the specific timelines on, on what came first, but she lived.

21:59

She lived about 2 1/2 hours away from my parents after she finished school.

And my parents were square dancers.

Oh, that's cute.

And there would be at least one if not 2 weekends a year where there was some square dance thing that they would go to.

22:15

So I would my sister and I would be taken to my aunt's place because she would watch us for the weekend and she had an album collection.

Oh what was in the collection?

Oh, lots of stuff.

But what I remember, what slaps me in the face so vividly is I would sit and stare at ELO's Out of the blue album because it was it was a double album.

22:42

And so it it folded out and the artwork was just mind blowing.

So that's there was that.

And then she came and lived with mom and dad and us for a summer to do summer school and she had her albums with I spent countless hours downstairs playing with Legos and listening to her albums.

23:05

And when she left, she said you can pick 1.

And I can't remember which one I picked, but I I, I remember I narrowed it down to the Lips Ink EP, Funk, the Funky Town EP that she had, or Cheap Trick at Buddha Con.

23:26

Oh, totally.

So I picked one of those two.

But you know, she was a big influence early on in music because she had she had a wide range.

It was the pop rock thing, but it was a wide range and something different from the country that my parents had in the house.

Yeah, did.

23:42

Did your parents like try and get you to like country or did they care?

They didn't push it.

You know, I, I know at one point in time they, they didn't push it, but they also allowed for, they allowed for exploration, you know, in the sense that at one point I had three or four John Denver albums back at that point.

24:05

You know, Speaking of mixtapes, back at that point in time, there was a company called K Tel that the they'd run TV ads and everything, but it's like compilation albums, you know, and you could get you, you could get it.

24:23

There was one that, if I remember correctly, it had, it had Beth by kiss.

I think it had a, a James Taylor song on it.

It had, you know, it had all these different, different songs on it.

And so you could, you could order them and get these albums.

24:41

I had a couple of those.

Wow, so you know they you know they always.

You got to do what you wanted, right?

Like, very much so I think.

You were fully just following your own curiosity.

Yeah, You know, Columbia Records, which at that point in time had you, you'd get something in the mail where it's like all you have to do is order 44 cassettes after this.

25:07

But here's 12 free ones.

Pick your 12 free ones.

And you know, I think, yeah, I seem to recall my parents doing that.

I I did it once, once I had my own money, I did it myself.

But I seem to recall my parents doing that before I had my own money.

25:23

So yeah, you know, I was able to pick a bunch of music and stuff like that.

That's awesome.

That's that's actually similar to how I got my very first CD.

It was like one of those I think it was called like BMG.

OK.

And yeah, like you ordered, they sent you just like.

25:40

Yes.

So many.

Yep.

CDs and stuff.

Yes.

Yeah.

So my very first CD was Weezer's Blue Album.

OK.

Yeah.

You know, one that I still love today.

Yep.

But yeah, it's so cool that they that it is a really cool way to get introduced to new music.

25:56

Yes.

Or at least it was back, you know, back then.

Back then, yes.

What was it gonna say?

Oh yeah, just that the other thing that you're talking about kind of reminds me of that now that's what I call music yes the the CDs that you can get and and now they're on like volume, you know, 860 yes or whatever.

26:14

Yep, and I was just looking at the the yellow album art here, like some different ones here the the.

Spaceship and everything.

And if you zoom in on that, there's actually people that you see through the glass.

OK, right.

26:29

Yeah, Actually, this is one that my dad has on his wall right now.

Oh.

Beautiful.

Well.

There.

Yeah, that's cool.

I was also going to play because I my mom grew raised me on cheap.

Tricks.

OK, Yep.

26:45

So like I literally had this song already saved on my like childhood nostalgia.

27:16

So if you picked this one from your aunt I.

Yes.

I support that.

We'll just we'll just say that that is the one that you.

Picked that works it.

Probably wasn't.

It probably was.

I would I would think I went with the cheap trick one just because the the lip sync one was AEP.

27:37

Less music.

Less music, so fair enough.

And I don't know.

For me, I I've listened to a lot of the cheap tricks studio albums and stuff.

Their life is way better.

It is, that's why this is the one that's saved on my playlist 'cause it's weird when you go to the studio version.

27:56

Yes, and what's really weird is I'm not a fan of live albums.

Oh, really?

Like historically you're actually not?

No, that's actually fascinating 'cause I feel like I usually AM.

That's I'm a lot of times and, and I think, I think cheap trick is probably the exception to the rule because that's how I was introduced to him, was this live album.

28:20

Whereas everybody else, the live albums are after, right after thing from, you know, it's a, it's a recorded tour, recorded concert supporting the previous album.

And I don't know, there's just something, there's something about it.

28:37

I, I have live albums, but you know, if I'm, if I'm going to pick 1 and that's not what I'm going to pick.

I'm, I'm actually similar, Yeah.

I I choose the studio album pretty much every time.

That's I went to, I went to see here a week, week ago or so.

28:52

I saw Gary Numan opening for The Psychedelic Furs and I've I've seen The Psychedelic Furs.

This was my third or fourth time that.

Is awesome.

And The thing is, is last time I was kind of disappointed.

Oh, really?

Yeah, and this time I wasn't as disappointed, but at the same time it it's it was one of those things where it's like, this is kind of their greatest hits album and the live, the live isn't as good as the original recording.

29:27

Oh, like, so you would probably just rather hear like, new stuff or like, kind of deep dives from their discography and sort of like, yeah.

Yeah, I guess, you know, and that's, and that's kind of, that's kind of how I see live albums is they're good, you know, they're, they're engineered, they're engineered for the sound of a live setting, which is different than what you experience actually at the concert.

29:53

Yeah, definitely.

And like when you're talking about like the layers and the way that you hear the layers in the studio album versus of a live, I feel like it's pretty different.

It very much so.

And, and there's a lot of a lot of times you just don't get that live.

Please pardon this interruption.

30:14

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30:31

Now back to your regular scheduled programming.

All right, so where were we?

Well, we were all kinds of places, but I did just want to say already, I just really appreciate not everybody has quite such a like vivid moment.

30:50

Like I feel like you have taken us back to I am picturing like you driving around in your car with the radio with your friend.

Like I can picture you sitting and looking at music at your aunts house.

It's like it's just cool how vivid and like visual some of these like moments are.

31:06

So thank you for bringing some awesome stuff to US.

Oh, you're very welcome.

I mean, well, I have another one for you that that I remember with my aunt.

My mother's family, my mother's parents lived on a farm in northeast North Dakota.

31:23

Actually, my both my parents grew up about 30 miles apart on farms.

But one I don't remember how we, I think, I think mom, my sister and I took the bus to Fargo and my aunt picked us up and we went up to my grandma's house.

31:41

By that point in time, my my grandfather had passed.

The thing was, it must have been springtime because you have to cross a small river to get to the farm.

No way.

You know, there's a bridge over it, but it was flooded.

There was flooding and at that point in time, of course, there were no such things as cell phones.

32:01

So there was a timing, timing issue in the sense of we had to be at the bridge at a certain time so my uncle could meet us.

All right.

There because if my aunt got stuck, stuck in the mud and water, he was going to have to pull us out.

32:20

And on the drive up there, there were one of the songs I remember that played was a Little River Band's Lady.

And that was something that that's another one of those moments that stuck in my head.

And I remember we get up, we get up to the bridge, you know, and my uncle walks through the mud and muck and everything and talks to my aunt about it.

32:41

And he's like, I think you can make it back up.

Take a run at it, get prepared, you know, be be prepared for for your back end to be a little squirrely and everything.

And so she did that, but she did it with the with the door down or the window down.

32:59

So I'm blowing through the mud and all this mud came, came blowing in.

But yeah, this song is one that I remember sitting in the back seat of her car and it was playing on the radio.

Wow.

OK, so this was like a radio song and not like she was like had a cassette in or like a.

33:18

She might have, it might have.

She had an 8 track in this vehicle.

It might have, it might have been an 8 track, but I think it was the radio.

But either way, she was like a fan of it, Yes, OK.

Yeah, and this is a song that has stuck every time I hear it.

33:34

In fact, I bought their greatest hits album because of this.

You can feel the mud hitting you in the face.

Exactly.

But she made it.

Yes, we made it through without my uncle.

Didn't have to get any muddier than just walking through to pull us through.

So that's.

33:52

Awesome.

This is one of those songs.

The harmonies are incredible.

Time to make On All right, well, thank you so much.

35:02

You're very welcome.

Thank you so much.

This was great.

Looking forward to Part 2.

Thanks for tuning in to that Takes me back broadcasting from 97 OW studio in beautiful Grand Junction, Co.

35:20

Today's episode was recorded, produced and edited by your hosts, Kellen David and Maya Sage.

Did you know that there's a lot of our conversation that doesn't make the final episode?

If you want to hear full uncut interviews, you can join our community on Patreon where you could chat with fans of the show, guests of the show, as well as the hosts of the show.

35:42

We would love to know where you're tuning in from Our website isthattakesmeback.org where you can find all of our episodes as well as a playlist of the songs we've had on the show.

If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend.

PART :

You know, when you hear a song and it triggers a memory, it instantly takes you back to a particular person or place or moment.

This podcast is all about that song and those memories.

Welcome to That Takes Me Back, where we share stories that connect music and memories.

We're your hosts.

0:20

Kellen, David.

And Maya Sage and on today's episode.

Delong, Tom Delong, wouldn't you?

Sorry.

There you go.

Yeah.

See, I knew it.

I knew if we just let it ride it would eventually pop in.

0:37

Nice.

Well done.

Yeah.

Here we are for Part 2 of Todd's interview.

Once again, he's a really good old friend of mine who loves music a lot and connects with a lot of different types of music.

0:57

In this episode, we ended up talking a lot about his favorite artist, Robin Hitchcock, and I have to say, I was not expecting that music to be what it was.

It was very whimsical and interesting and weird lyrics, but then it also does have a touch of like dark themes.

1:16

And if you happen to know Todd, then you know that describes him perfectly as a person.

A little bit of whimsy, a little bit of dark, all in one.

Yeah, and, and a lot of nice guy, it turns out, too.

Yes, yes.

So we had a really good time talking about all kinds of things and venturing a little bit away from the music.

1:37

And we thought it was such good conversation that we wanted to give you a Part 2 to listen to this this month.

We hope you enjoy listening.

2:09

Song.

That's good stuff.

I've never heard anything of Little River.

No, I don't know I have either, Yeah.

They were a big group in the late 70s and 80s.

Of course, if I OK, I was going to say if I had said that and my dad was here, he'd say yes you do.

2:26

Of course he.

Would I've played that for you?

Yes, any good parent does that.

Yeah, well and like I was saying he they were a very music forward household.

Like they would have music time and like put record.

Oh nice.

Yeah, just like, yeah, go down and and go downstairs, just listen to music.

2:44

Was like, yeah, we would do that.

Yeah, just as a family.

Because even for me, like I grew up on a lot of music from my mom, but some of it was just like purely by accident or like being forced into it, like being in the backseat and my mom's playing the mix CD that she pirated off a Limewire.

3:03

And like her cleaning the house and me like sitting like in the sunshine, like watching the incense and listening to her clean the house to like Otis Redding and stuff like that.

So yeah, it's just it's cool that they like, intentionally had time for listening to music and.

3:21

Yes, yeah.

And it wasn't like we were playing a game at the same time or, or anything like that's what we were doing was.

Instead of book reading time, it was music listening time.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

That's beautiful.

Yeah, yeah, I, me and all of my siblings, well, and my dad, you know, are just continually thankful for that Yes, time.

3:40

Yeah, it's a good way to spend time together and experience new music, even old music.

And like for you, you were willing to, you know, go through a tank of gas, yes.

And, you know, to to listen to two sides of an album, yes.

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of memories of like a friend and I cruising around town with, you know, two or three cassettes.

4:04

And that's what we would listen to as we drove around.

We would we would pick some, pick some cassettes for what to fit the mood that we were in.

I love that.

And just drive around.

Yeah, so.

I'm just curious, not to throw you under the bus or anything, but were there any, like was there drinking or or not drinking, smoking or.

4:26

Yeah, smoking weed.

Yeah.

Because that transported me back to sometimes that I had forgotten about driving around or parking somewhere so that we could smoke a bowl.

Like because we were with our living, with our parents or whatever, like different friends and like showing each other music in the car.

4:46

Like that's actually such a cool.

I don't know.

That's a whole vibe.

I had a friend, my closest friend who who introduced me to a lot of the music I still love today.

I I can't go as far as to say that he was a dealer, but he had the connections and it was.

5:03

He was the plug.

He he was, it was common to be, it was common to go someplace and we would go in and get, you know, he'd pick, we, we'd, we'd go in, we'd sample, we'd sit around, talk and BS with everybody.

And he would leave with a couple of bags.

5:21

And then it's like, oh, can we make a stop over here on, on the way?

Yeah, sure.

And we run in and he goes, here you go on this.

I told you I'd get you this.

And then we'd sit around and we'd smoke some more and talk and, and, and summers often sucked because of the construction season in Minnesota.

5:39

And when you're really stoned, all those orange cones and barrels and signs can be a real problem at times.

They just jump out at.

You, they just jump out at you Yeah.

You know, fortunately, I never really hit anything, but, you know, it it it it could lead to a more psychedelic experience.

5:58

You're.

Like find the path between.

Find the path.

It was.

Are we going lightspeed right now?

Yeah, yeah, there were.

There were times and we'd, you know, of course, get the giggles and stuff.

So.

Right.

Oh.

That's.

Great.

But yes, there was a lot of you know, and especially in college and everything, pot and music went hand in hand.

6:18

Yeah.

Do you think that that you would have heard the layers in the same way like without being under the influence or was that sort of well?

You know that that's The thing is, you know, like the Church Blurred Crusade, that entire album I listened to a lot, not under the influence and all the beauty shot just shone through on it.

6:42

For me, listening to it under the influence, I don't think anything, you know, the 12th string might have seemed a little more jangly or something like that, but nothing.

It wasn't like, Oh my God, I never heard this before.

You know, it didn't it it it didn't alter.

7:00

But then there was other, there were other times where, you know, I'd, I'd, if it was more of a casual listen music when I was high, I was like, Oh wow, I've never heard that before so.

Yeah, I've definitely had the experience where I'll listen to something under the influence and, you know, hear it in a different way and then I can't unhear it that way right now.

7:25

That will stick with you.

I feel like the IT like just opens the doors a little bit something and then you're like, whoa.

Yeah.

And that's that's happened to me where if it was more of a casual list listening type of music and then I listened to it stoned, it was once I heard that under the influence, you couldn't go back.

7:46

Yeah.

So yeah, it it was always a it was a beneficial way to listen to music.

Yeah.

Well, and I mean, that's just so, that's just so classic.

I mean, that's what kids are doing.

I mean, there's a reason for that, I think.

8:01

Well, and and some would argue that it's a beneficial way to create the music.

Yes, yes it does.

It helps very much.

Yeah, it can.

I I find myself sometimes thinking like, wow, like this is like one of the best things I've ever written.

8:20

Too bad it's only three seconds long and I, you know, and I can't get past that like 3 seconds.

Yes, yeah.

But then on the flip side to it too, there's been times because at that point I was still playing keyboards and piano and friends had guitars and drums and stuff like that.

We'd get really high in jam and think it's really good.

8:37

And if we happen to record it and then listen to it later, it's like, yeah, I think we were a little too messed up.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean, but if you had a great time just doing the jam session then.

That's what matters, yeah.

And that's the thing about the weed actually, is that it will take the judgment out to where you're just feeling good.

8:55

Right, right.

It's it's.

You need that judgment, but you know.

Right.

It's a filter remover, just like alcohol and everything, you know?

Yeah, as long as you understand its place in the entire process, that's what matters.

Yep.

But yes, there's been there was a fair amount of marijuana involved in my music listening when I was younger.

9:13

Yeah, I just like, I've thought of it, like I said, because it took me back actually to like, I forgot that I spent years, like, finding new music because of whoever was smoking weed with me in my car.

Right, exactly.

Right.

I stumbled upon a lot of music that I still listen to in that same way.

9:31

We weren't tuning into the radio, I was handing them the aux cord, right?

But right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that's that's the thing.

Music, music delivery has changed over the years.

Yeah.

One of the things I get frustrated with Spotify about is if I play, if I play a certain genre of music that algorithm, all of a sudden it's like, no, I don't want to listen to this this, this style.

9:54

I I.

You know, and so you start listening to something else to branch out and try to break that, then all of a sudden it just shifts over.

No, I, I I need something broader, you know, I.

Agree I find myself frustrated by that exact same thing even simply like I don't know why they do it to where even if you sometimes will go in to like find a playlist that like supposedly is pre made right it it'll be like still tailored to your music taste.

10:19

It even says tailored for Maya, right?

And so you're actually seeing different artists than whatever on the Spotify made playlist and that pisses me off.

Like I'm trying to find new things.

Even the Discover Weekly is too filtered.

10:34

Right, exactly.

And I want to be shocked by things sometimes.

I like finding music I don't like.

Right.

Yeah.

And you, I mean, to have that experience like you were talking about of the first time you heard an album and you couldn't go home, right, Because you had to stay in the car and and finish it.

10:50

Yes, I feel like first of all, like to to find an album like that these days is like, I mean, music isn't written to be on albums anymore.

No, it's not.

They're they're written as singles.

Some people still some artists.

I'm sure that it happens those.

Are my favorite artists, Yeah, that look at an album as an album in the same way.

11:08

But you're right, it's different.

Well, and and to there were the copyright issues even back right back then of like playing a whole album on the radio.

I mean like, that's just not how music is delivered anymore.

Yeah, no, it's true.

Like even even in my day of, of the CDs of, you know, I, I was on the cusp of, you know, I had cassettes, right and then graduated to CDs, but it was about the album, right?

11:33

Well, yeah, because that's the unit you went and purchased it in.

So even just simply that I get what you're saying.

It's like, yeah, you're not consuming.

You don't necessarily have to sit through certain songs or even skip past them.

Totally.

And and it's funny because like there are so many songs that I didn't like the first time listening to an album.

11:51

And it's like, oh, like that one's not going to be, you know, one of my favorites.

And maybe it never became one of my favorites, but it did become like, not a song that I skip, right?

You know, it's a song that I want to listen to, and if it comes up on its own, not in the context of an album, I'll still want to listen to it, right?

12:08

Totally.

Yeah, you know, the, the, the concept of an album, what what I learned was, you know, if you heard if, if, if it made like a rock, a rock station or a Top 40 rotation type of thing.

And I liked it to the point where I wanted to buy the album most of the time.

12:26

That song was actually not one of the best songs on the album.

It, it was the one picked for the solo, you know, for the, for the release type of thing, right?

But it, it was always for me or I shouldn't, I can't say always, 98% of the time it was the album experience.

12:43

It might, it might have been a single, it might have been something that got my attention, but it was the album experience.

Yeah, yeah, and and you go out and buy the album.

Really looking forward to finding those other songs.

Exactly because that that one song was created within the context of a much bigger picture.

12:59

So so you get to see the big picture of what the artist was driving for in this release.

Yeah, definitely.

To the point where your memories and the the moments you're taking us back to couple of them have been songs, but mostly it's been the album you taking time basically like communing with the whole album.

13:20

Yes.

Mm, Hmm.

Yeah.

You know, I, I can, you know, going back to that Robin Hitchcock album, the song Element of Light is for me, mind blowing, but the one thing that really sticks out because of course, after hearing the album that one night, Steve went out and bought the album.

13:38

OK, Yeah.

So and of course then I.

Then you got a hold of it.

Got a hold of it, had cassettes and we would, we would play that album.

There was periods where we would play at 3:00 or you know, we, we would go all like during the summer, we would go out almost every every evening and drive around.

13:55

And there were periods where there were three or four nights out.

That was the cassette we listened to, and there's a song on that album on the element of Light that Ted Woody and Junior is the is the name of the song and the harmonies.

14:47

Yes and later in the song he layers it more vocals and and gets these super high, high notes in there.

When did he?

When I first searched him up I was contact and the Egyptians.

Yes.

See Robin Hitchcock has been involved in multiple.

15:06

Projects.

Projects he he came.

The Soft Boys were the his original group.

Then it was Robin Hitchcock and the Egyptians.

Then he's done some just Robin Hitchcock, and he's done Robin Hitchcock and the -5.

15:23

Oh, he's done a lot.

Yes.

And and do you listen to his solo stuff too?

Yes, and this is another artist I've seen, I've seen 6 * 7 times and he's coming.

I'd have to take off from Best Buy to do it, but he's going to be in Fort Collins at the end of January, in Denver on February 1st.

15:42

You should do it.

And so last year I saw him twice and he played Denver 1st and at the meet and greet after I said, I'm going to be at the Fort Collins show tomorrow, can you play this song?

And he was.

And so then the next night he goes, well, supposedly there's a gentleman that was at last night's show that's here.

16:03

And I, I'm, I'm playing this for him.

And I, I just, yeah, I was in, I was sitting towards the back and I just yelled thank you as loud as I could.

And so.

Yeah.

Oh.

My God, I would have cried.

Oh, it was fantastic.

But the but to be fair, he he's, he, he doesn't play big venues.

16:20

You know, he's, he's a small artist, as you can tell by his lyrics.

You know, he, he's not for everybody.

And he plays at he.

I feel like that's pretty relatable.

Yes, and and, and I you know, and that's the thing that it that I like is that he it's twisted and it's fun and, and the song, I've done it several times because he's small plays small venues.

16:44

He's one of these artists that'll go on on his very socials playing this venue on this day.

Throw throw your requests at me.

Wow, that's really cool.

So and I've done it set and I've always with him Ghost ship.

I don't know why.

17:00

Well, I do have an idea why.

It's the layers and it's the music, it's the it's the guitar.

But I always request Ghost ship whenever whenever I can the. glassy.

17:45

He always does a meet and greet after the shows, it's fantastic.

That's really cool.

And like, you don't have to pay.

No, dude, that's really.

Cool.

No, In fact, it's to the point now where I sit and I sit in the audience in a point where I can get out fairly quick to get to the front of the line, so that way I don't have to stand in line for an extent a long time.

18:08

But he sometimes he tours with his wife, Emma Swift, who is also a musician.

She's from Australia.

Whoa, that's really cool.

And she'll come out and sing with him and their harmonies are really quite impressive.

18:25

Nice.

Oh, that's so beautiful.

And that's the first time I did one of the meet and greets she had.

She was the opener and then performed with him, so I met him and then met her.

That's really cool.

So that that was a lot of fun.

18:41

It would be so cool to be able to do that with your husband or wife.

Like, yes, even just being in any type of band setting in on a stage, like there's just a lot of, it's just such a in the moment experience and you have to be really like in tune with each other chemistry.

18:58

Yep.

Yeah, and it's like a there's a camaraderie to it.

Like it just sounds like it would be such a bonding experience.

Yeah, I think it can go either way.

Oh well, we do.

I mean, we know.

Yeah, I mean, look at the Eagles.

Yes.

I actually thought first of The White Stripes.

Did they?

Yeah.

The White Stripes, yeah.

19:14

I mean, yeah, just like in general, though.

I mean like.

There's an implosion.

Yeah, I mean, I was in a band for years with my brothers and, you know, we'd made it through.

But yeah, there was some, some pain that incurred and totally.

And, and I think that that I probably felt at the most and they would say like what?

19:33

No, that was just fantastic, you know, but definitely I in my mind put some strain on on the relationships.

Yep.

But then that kind of comes, I think, pretty much any life situation.

Sure, yeah, but you.

19:49

But in this case, you're on stage in front of people.

True.

And, you know, like you're in the public eye.

That's true.

I wasn't thinking about it in that aspect.

And that's no, that's very true.

It's always fun to watch a band break up on stage, isn't it?

Right.

There was.

Yeah, that's true.

20:05

Like, yeah, what a show.

Yes.

You'd remember that.

One yeah, I recently read Mark Hoppus of Blink, Blink 182, his memoir, and he talks about later shows with Blink 182 where at a lot of the shows they him and I don't know why it's not coming to me at the moment.

20:24

Anyway, they would like RIP on each other and and like, you know, put each other down and stuff.

And it was just like part of the show.

But he said that by the end, like they were they meant it like they were screaming at each other and they meant it, yes and yeah.

And it was just like, yeah, So it's sort of.

20:40

And.

And they were like, you know, best friends and.

Just like having to like deal with the stress of it though and what and all the.

Yeah, yeah, and, and, and also like the fame and the ego and that kind of stuff.

I feel like, yeah, can get in the way.

And I feel like there are some relationships that I think that, you know, are strong enough slash, you know, and something like this where you're saying, you know, he's playing like these smaller venues.

21:05

You know, maybe, you know, the head doesn't get so big, right, You know, where that that the ego part of it maybe doesn't play quite as big of a role.

True, very true.

The thing is, is he, he's always played, I guess the first time I saw him, it would have been at the 1st Ave. the 7th St. entry in Minneapolis.

21:26

And that was for, for the venues I've seen him in that that was a large, a larger venue that was, it was probably probably similar to like Mesa Theater or something.

Oh wow.

So yeah, he does.

Really.

And and so and, and like Daniels Hall in South Denver and I guess technically Inglewood, it's part of the Swallow Hill Music OK group.

21:52

I think it's seats 300.

It's an old, it's an old gym that they put chairs in.

Oh, OK.

And there is a balcony, so maybe 350.

Wow that what do you think Mesa theaters capacity is?

I'm not sure off the top of my head I want I want to say I think it's like 700.

22:09

I thought, I thought I googled it one time when I went to a show there 505 fifty something like that for.

Real 'cause it seems.

Like more intimate than that there.

Is it does go?

I forget how far back it goes 'cause I'm usually in the front right?

It is actually fairly big, but probably a bigger capacity than the Avalon.

22:28

Delong, Tom Delong, wouldn't you?

Sorry.

There you go.

Yeah.

See, I knew it.

I knew if we just let it ride it would eventually pop in.

Nice.

Well done.

Yeah.

Avalon's bigger.

Yeah.

22:43

Yeah, I guess there's the balcony and.

But the point being that even his biggest.

Yeah, his biggest.

He's he's never, he's never had a big, really massive.

He has a great following, a dedicated following, but it's always a much smaller community.

23:00

He's influenced so many bands.

You know, R.E.M.

Is.

Oh wow.

He he is.

Pretty much all the members of R.E.M.

Have worked with him in some capacity on side projects.

No way because my mom loves R.E.M.

23:15

Yeah, that's Peter Buck was part of -5 which was Robin Hitchcock's band in the early 2000s.

OK.

So, you know, there there's a lot of bands the, the college radio bands that I grew up listening to will reference Robin Hitchcock as an influence for what what they became.

23:39

OK, so so like the church where there was that song that I did definitely know.

Is there a a Hitchcock song that?

Balloon Man.

Yes, Balloon Man was his biggest US radio hit.

OK, I was walking up 6th Ave.

When Balloon Man came. laughed.

24:31

Now what's with the whimsy?

That's the way he is.

It is whimsical, Yeah.

It's almost like kids music.

In some ways it is.

It's a mixture of in some ways it's it's playful in kids music way.

24:53

He, he has a love of Bob Dylan and The Beatles.

In fact, there was one time I was in a music store and I found all his re releases on Rhino of, of CDs and I bought a bunch of them.

And so we're sitting at a friend's house and we're listening to him.

25:11

And this guy pointed out how pretty much every song you could put in The Beatles harmonies into it.

But I lost my train of thought on where I was going with this.

The Beatles have a lot of that whimsy, too.

Yes, Oh yeah, whimsy.

But that's he has he has this whimsy, but he it's also, it can be childlike, but it's also extremely dark.

25:35

Yeah.

And that I was thinking that it would have to be with you, to be honest.

Yes, with me it has to be.

Yeah, it's a it's, it's cleaner, like sounding than the Kinks, but it's sort of reminding me of the Kinks.

There, there's definitely similarity to that.

25:50

I recently saw an interview on The Current, which is a radio station, public radio station in Minneapolis, Minneapolis, Saint Paul that he did.

He lives in Nashville now.

He's lived in Nashville for I think over a decade, maybe, maybe even closer to 20 years.

26:07

But one of the things that the interviewer asked him is, have you ever thought about writing a country song?

He goes, well, I could do it.

That's but I I really haven't thought about it because that market wouldn't get my lyrics.

OK, Right.

Yeah.

Because his his lyrics are always they they can go from talking about homosexuality to death to this is a this is a happier song.

26:34

But exactly what does Balloon Man blowing up in your hand mean?

So yeah.

OK, I get what you're saying.

There's like a there's a dichotomy to it.

Yes, and that's, and that's why he it's hard for him to be consumed by the masses, you know, and one of the he said one of the reasons he moved to the States is because his actual market is in the States.

27:00

He's you know, in England where he's from, he has he has devoted fans, but nothing compared to the states or Europe.

So.

We got more weirdos over here.

I guess so.

But it is cool that even pre Internet like there is an audience for everything.

27:17

Yes, there is.

You know, back then though, it was word of mouth.

That's nowadays, if artists get lucky in the right algorithm on Spotify, drop something for you.

Or if as a listener, you're a little more adventurous and willing to put work into it, you know, jump on SoundCloud and stuff like that.

27:38

Right word of mouth.

Word of mouth again.

Only things that I hear and actually go check out is somebody who told like when someone I know was like, I just listened to this great podcast or this cool song, right?

This is who I'm obsessed with right now.

You got to check them out, right?

27:54

That is like still my number one form of.

Oh, very much so.

You know, so I don't know, it's, yeah, we're limited in certain ways, but in other ways, like I will hear about somebody who has 300 monthly listeners on Spotify from somebody I know.

28:11

And at least in that regard, like in some ways there's more access.

I don't know.

Yeah, it's it's, it feels like there's there's more and less.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Please pardon this interruption.

28:27

We just wanted to encourage you to follow us on whatever podcasting platform you use.

It helps others discover our show.

You can look forward to a new episode on the 1st of the month every month.

If you want to hear an uncut interview two weeks early, join our Patreon.

28:45

Now, back to your regular scheduled programming.

Yeah.

And something that had come up when we were interviewing my dad is like the idea of sort of like the universe, like supplying a song to you, right?

29:00

Like in a particular moment that like speaks to you in a particular way because like, yeah, that's what you needed to hear.

Yep, to some degree.

And so we were kind of talking like, does that still exist now in today's world of like all the algorithms and all of that?

And, and, and when you're getting all your music from word of mouth and that kind of thing, I think that you still can even through word of mouth, get those songs that, you know, just like really speak to you.

29:23

And maybe not because the person who gave it to you said like, you need to listen to this because of what you're going through, but maybe like, you need to listen to this because I like the song.

And then you listen to it and you're like, whoa, I needed to hear that song.

Right.

And to that the algorithm played a song by rest.

29:40

Then it's like, wow, this is good.

I liked it and I looped and I played it a couple of times.

I was like, I I need to explore this.

And on their latest album, I think I sent you one of them.

Is it the one?

WREST.

30:48

I couldn't come down.

Yeah, this song has just been and there's like four other four or five others on this album that I've liked.

And I just I will hit repeat and just play over and over again.

Look, the last three on this album, this one in the following two are just incredible.

31:08

And like the first two.

So I love that you can still hear their accents.

Yeah, right.

That's like rare.

Yeah.

They they remind me of a frightened rabbit A.

Flare in the night So, so this came up when we were, I was just talking about like the universe sort of like giving you a song.

31:39

Oh, so it gave you this?

Yeah.

Totally out of nowhere.

Yeah.

Wow on one of my like discover weekly or yeah I think want to discover weekly lists.

And do you, did it like speak to you for a particular reason, like at that particular time or was it just like, oh, I just like this?

32:00

It a mixture of both.

Musically, it caught me, but then after reading the lyrics there, there was a message to it that I guess I can say I struggle with in the sense of past relationships or something like that and you know, to that effect.

32:21

So but yeah, this song was just blew me away at that day.

Yeah, so this so you, you had known the artist before or?

No, no.

Yeah, that is so cool and I feel like I haven't had that in a little while.

32:37

Yeah, this.

In fact I I enjoy this album so much I went to band Camp camp and bought it.

Nice SO.

It was just, yeah, it it's just one of those albums that this one song caught my interest and it's like just mind blowing, Yeah.

32:54

So the universe still has some ways.

It does.

I guess we have to be kind of on our on the watch.

Yeah, I have to be like open to it.

I, I recently just watched a, a YouTube video about algorithms and actually one of the strategies that's really good algorithms use is to it points you to like really popular things nine times out of 10, right, But that's not 10th time it'll actually point you to something very not popular, right?

33:25

And that's like in order to just get out of like a feedback loop yes.

And so because it's pointing you to something that's not popular, most of the time it just gets skipped over again, right?

But sometimes you end up with something right that you're like, oh wow.

Like I'm so glad that it showed me this.

33:41

Yes, even though the reason it did was just to get out of popular.

Right, right.

Once in a while, there's a gem in all of that.

Right.

Yeah.

No, this is one of them for me.

I will ask people for their Spotify accounts sometimes people that I don't even really know that well, but I know they're can music heads, right?

33:58

And I'll go in and you can.

Not everybody does this, but you can make playlists.

So a lot of people have like all kinds of different playlists that they've put together.

One of my old friends that I'm not even in touch with anymore, I'll like dig through her.

Oh, what'd she listen to, You know?

34:14

Oh, this season.

Oh, she made a new like fall time playlist.

Cool.

Let me like dig through it a little bit.

I find like some weird deep cuts from from weird artists that are not on my radar doing that.

So yeah, it's one of the cool.

34:29

I I like that aspect of Spotify.

Like there's a lot of playlists made by Spotify.

And I'm sure a lot of those songs are like sponsored to some degree and blah, blah, blah.

But you can also find all kinds of playlists that a real person sat down and made.

34:44

And that's what Spotify is for me.

I will sit down, like on my iPad or on my computer and like, make a playlist and have like, a little music listening session and like, pick out a picture for and blah, blah, blah.

So yeah.

I do feel like I do need to just set aside, set aside time to listen to music, you know?

35:05

I mean, like, that was something I grew up with, right?

And yet, like now it's so difficult to be like, just listen to music.

No, I have to be listening to music while I'm doing something else.

That's why the weed helps.

Word.

Yeah, I can.

I can see that.

Lock yourself in your room.

35:20

Yeah, yeah, I do.

What?

Hi and with some headphones on I.

Have to be in the right space otherwise weed makes me very paranoid.

Oh yeah.

And then I'm listening to the music and wondering what that noise was.

Right.

You're like, oh is my house burning down around me while I have my headphones on really loud?

35:37

Right.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

Plus, why does everybody hate me?

Yes.

Yeah, a little bit of that thrown in there.

Yeah, forget.

And, you know, is the world ending?

Yeah.

And that too, yeah.

Yeah, well, see, those those things don't bother me.

It's kind of like people hate me.

35:52

Good.

They'll leave me alone.

Is the world ending?

Oh, finally.

I I'm done with it all.

I got.

I got to see the end.

How cool.

Yeah, and you?

Know me well enough to know how dark I can go with that so.

No, I get it.

36:08

I get it.

It's funny because I think about like if the world is really is going to hell in a handbasket and I wonder like, is it going to invigorate some crazy will for me to like survive And I'll like, you know, stop getting caught up in like stupid sadness about silly things because you know, it'll be like survival mode.

36:28

Or am I just going to take that as my ticket to check the fuck out because I don't want to see everybody go crazy at the end of the world?

I'm ready to check out.

Yeah, I feel like I'll be one of the 1st to go and I'm I'm OK with that.

Although that is, that is why I want LASIK is so, you know, when, when, when the world ends, I'll still have good vision without, you know, having to go track down glasses and contacts and stuff.

36:55

If I'd lose my glasses, I'll everything will just be a big blur.

So yeah, might that might not be a bad way to go.

Actually you.

Know just walk in front of a train you.

Go out in a blurred crusade.

There you go.

Excellent reference.

Yeah, thanks.

Yeah, well played.

37:11

Callback.

They call that a callback.

Wow, I.

Like.

It that's excellent.

Should we dig back into a timeline?

Do you have any notable that takes me back that comes along later on after high school, more into college?

37:26

I know I've heard a bit about your college experience.

He went to school to be an architect.

So many years of the college experience.

Many years, yes, because I didn't get into architecture immediately.

So I did a year.

My freshman year was at home.

37:43

In Minnesota.

Then I got into the architecture program in North Dakota or North Dakota Dakota and that was a five year program.

Oh, right.

So I had six years there, and then my wife and I moved to Chicago so she could go to Med school.

38:03

This would have been in 91 as we're entering A recession, so I couldn't find work.

So I went back to school and got a master's.

Nice.

You know, through, I guess through my, my architecture program, it was introduced to new music.

Nothing that really truly jumps out to me.

38:19

I, I remember writing would have been a second year, second year in the architecture program.

So that would have technically made me a junior in college.

That was when U2 broke big.

Oh, OK.

And Joshua Tree that that was the album and we they chartered, can't remember what organization did it, but they chartered two or three buses to go to the U2 concert in Minneapolis and they think they were playing Saint Paul.

38:52

That's actually really cool.

Because I saw them, I saw U2 on the Unforgettable Fire tour in like a 5000 seat venue and then saw them on the Joshua Tree tour in a 20,000 plus seat tour.

39:09

Yeah.

Wow.

And so this was like, like you said, like early 90s.

Late, late 80s, OK.

'Cause this this album dropped 87.

So wow, I went, it was, it was approaching midterms or something like that because I rode the bus down studying.

39:27

Oh.

Yeah.

And then I was with, I was with a couple of friends and my friend Steve and another high school friend were going to the show too, you know, pre cell phone.

And it's like we'll find each other.

Yeah.

So we went and my friends were with, we went walking, we went walking down, we were early.

39:49

We went walking, walking down to one of the bars and we went into the bar, ordered drinks.

And 15 minutes later, my friend Steve and Scott walk in.

And Scott's like, you know, Steve kept saying he's going to find you.

He knows where you are.

You're going to find and.

40:06

And it's like, yeah.

Yeah, that's awesome.

That's so cool.

We finished a couple drinks, I love that, went out to their vehicle, smoked some pot and then went to the show.

The Bodean missed part of the Bodean's open as the opening act well.

You had to.

You had important business, Yes, and too.

40:22

And then we got on the bus afterwards and I studied all the way home.

Wow.

And you passed?

I did.

Yeah.

Nice.

But yeah, that's what I remember about this album.

Wow.

40:56

But but that's, you know, they, they, they went big at at this point in time, but this is, I'm still listening to the college radio scene and people, I'd piss off people in in studio because I wouldn't listen to head with headphones on.

I would just put in whatever I'm listening to and make everybody listen to it.

41:15

So.

You're welcome.

Exactly.

So you were talking about going from the 5000 person venue to the 20,000 person venue.

And I wonder, and this goes for a ton of artists, but like, do you think that there are artists who like you 2 who sort of maybe wish they could go back to a more intimate venue?

41:34

Or are they just all about like the the huge ones?

You know, that's an interesting question.

My business partner has seen you 2-3 or four times.

Oh wow, and he's always, always asked if I want to go and I've said no because for me, 'cause you know, this, this show was basically to take the 5000 seat venue and he just put 20,000 people in front of him instead.

42:01

Real simple that with them on the stage.

Sure, right.

You don't have the the pyrotechnic.

Surge exactly It was the music and everything and it was just so incredible.

I mean, I, I felt bad in the sense that this was a 20,000 seat venue versus the 5000 seat, but yet, you know, in hindsight now to see where they went, right.

42:24

It was still small.

Happy for them and everything, but you know, whenever Paul said, hey, do you want to go see them, I'm like, no, I'm not in.

I'm not into going to see the spectacle of U2.

I've seen U2 as a.

Band OK, yeah.

And and so to get to your get to your question, yeah, I think, I think acts like this, you know, that that's what made MTV Unplugged such a sure an exciting show for artists is because it gets you back to the basics.

42:52

It gets you back to the simplicity of the music.

Yeah, not the spectacle of the music.

Yeah, cause 'cause when you get to that size like you could sort of are forced to be.

Forced to it yes, and I have to remind you know, I'll I'll listen to you too and I'll be like, you know, it's one of their later albums.

43:08

This is good.

It's just so bad.

They had to get so big.

And then then I have to remind myself, you know, to detach the, the spectacle part from the music part because.

Yeah, and, and just the fact that an artist gets big doesn't negate, you know, all the good that they put out.

43:26

Right.

Exactly, exactly, you know.

Right.

And technically, we all would hope that our favorite artists get all the money and recognition right deserve for being awesome.

But I get what you're saying right at the same time.

Yes, you know, it.

It was great for them, you know, same.

43:42

I never saw R.E.M.

And so I don't, I can't speak directly to their, to their shows, but at the same time, they were a small, you know, small band, college band that made it big and made it into the stadium shows.

And you know, I remember hearing interviews with Michael Stipe about how he had to modify his performance techniques because, you know, it's, it's different when you're performing like in a bar or 1000 seat venue versus, you know, 2020, five, 30,000 people.

44:13

Yeah, I'd imagine you have to make some way bigger.

Exactly.

And that's for them.

I'd, you know, I, I guess my memory is that they didn't really want to get to the spectacle stage.

They wanted to still be about the band, be about the music part.

So how do you change your performance?

44:30

Right.

To honor that.

Yeah.

Without introducing all the extra stuff.

Yeah.

Because it is interesting that like, like they kind of just can't play a small venue, right?

Like you get to a point where, you know, I mean, unless you charged, you know, $10,000 a ticket, right, or something like that.

44:48

And then is that the kind of people that you want to be playing in front of?

Right, exactly.

It's so it's an and what the way the music industry has become now.

Mm hmm, you know, so many artists have to tour, but yet touring is expensive and how do you do it?

45:06

So, and, and that's why I guess that's why I like Robin Hitchcock and.

Yeah, some of the people that hanging on to.

Very much so.

All right.

Well, thank you so much.

You're very welcome.

Thank you so much.

This was great.

Thanks for tuning in to that Takes me back broadcasting from 97 OW studio in Beautiful Grand Junction, Co.

45:32

Today's episode was recorded, produced, and edited by your hosts Kellen David and Maya Sage.

Did you know that there's a lot of our conversation that doesn't make the final episode?

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45:53

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